[Mark's Star Frontiers Page]
Star Frontiers list archive for Jan 96
Mon, 1 Jan 1996 16:23:36 -0600
RE:
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
I am currently working on a d20 system for STAR FRONTIERS and would like any
suggestions and input for new rules.
Thankyou.
Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:16:58 -0600
RE: Star Frontiers Vehicular Combat and Arms Rules.
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Well, I know they came up with some rules in a previous Dragon issue for
arming vehicles in STAR FRONTIERS but unfortunately, I don't have that
issue. So, If anyone could come up with a close approximation of these rules
I would be grateful. Also, I downloaded from somewhere rules about the void
and how to treat it which was most interesting. If you don't have it do a
Net Search with the key words being 'star frontiers' using Netscape.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Tue, 02 Jan 1996 12:25:13 -0700
RE: Star Wars
From: Steve Bartell <STEVEBAR@wordperfect.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Sorry to post this on the Frontiers list, but it was the best place I could
think of.
During my Christmas shopping, I got hung up at the bookstore in front of
the RPG section (as always!). I spent a lot of time looking through the
Star Wars RPG books.
From what I could tell, Star Wars looks like a very good RPG. It would be
nice to play a good SF game that is still supported, and since Star Wars
is my favorite movie - what better.
Could anyone who has played or owns this game let me know what you
think of it? Please do it privately, since I don't want to bog down the list.
I have already recieved cash for my birthday tommorrow, and it is
starting to get hot in my pocket. :-)
Also, does anyone know of a Star Wars listserver? It doesn't matter
whether it is related to the RPG, movie, or books.
Thanks!
Steve Bartell
Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:45:49 -0600
RE: Re: No Subject
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
At 06:46 PM 1/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-01-01 17:25:03 EST, you write: ('you' being Thomas
>Fuller)
>
>>I am currently working on a d20 system for STAR FRONTIERS and would like any
>>suggestions and input for new rules.
>>
>>
>
>Why? What do you think is wrong with the system in the books? And which
>system...we use the Zebulon's stuff, I like the result table in the book.
> (I've worked out an interesting system for investments using the result
>table and Finance skill; when I transfer it from my notebook to the computer
>I'll have to put it on the list here.) If you're talking about Alpha Dawn
>rules, and just wanted to use a d20 instead of rolling %, divide all the
>numbers by 5. That'll get you the number you need on a d20 (100/5=20). That
>ought to be simple, and doesn't change the odds much if at all in Alpha
>Dawn--which is okay if you don't think there's anything wrong with the
>system.
>
>So why are you doing this?
>
>Never go on an adventure without a hat!
> Indy
>
>IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
>
Because its there to do. I am including neat and nifty stuff like
cybernetics, etc...cyberpunk by subspace radio?! Maybe kidding there and
more skills. Instead of having to spend the 10? points to become a techex,
we just give you fifty to choose from our rather large list of skills. None
of that Scispec or Techex crap. While Zebulon's rules are good they could
still use improvement. Whatever happened to personal armor and vehicular
weaponry? I'm including that also among many things. So if you have any
constructive criticism or new rules or possibly resources on the Net for
Star Frontiers, let me know.
Thankyou.
Darryl Fuller.>
Wed, 03 Jan 1996 02:32:30 CST
RE: Re: No Subject <199601030045.SAA18595@n-link.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
>Because its there to do. I am including neat and nifty stuff like
>cybernetics, etc...cyberpunk by subspace radio?! Maybe kidding there and
>more skills. Instead of having to spend the 10? points to become a
>techex,
>we just give you fifty to choose from our rather large list of skills.
>None of that Scispec or Techex crap. While Zebulon's rules are good they
>could still use improvement. Whatever happened to personal armor and vehicular
>weaponry? I'm including that also among many things. So if you have any
>constructive criticism or new rules or possibly resources on the Net for
>Star Frontiers, let me know.
>Thankyou.
>Darryl Fuller.>
I too question why the heck you'd go to 1d20. There is more to 'do'
than I'd have time to do if I was getting paid to flesh out the system
as is, let alone rewrite the entire system. I'd suggest focusing your
energies in a more productive way then reinventing th wheel. That'd be
like removing the class system from AD&D and replacing it with a
template system; the templates being fighter, thief, cleric, wizard.
Ten Points To Buy Into Profession
I consider that to be the vestige of an idea that wasn't fully
developed, or wasn't fully removed. Remember: Zebulon's Guide was
pushed out the door as 1/2 the original planned size, and with several
important systems missing/unresolved, and you can't really playtest an
unfinished game. As is it is a pretty ridiculous statement they make:
'you start out with 20 points, 10 of which you MUST spend on this!' And
cat's really start out with 11 lives, but they must spend two to be
born, yeah. So I've crossed out those silly lines, and just give 10
points to start out with as (reached adulthood) points. After that, we
discuss character concept and see what other points are to be given.
(generally about 30 for 4 year college is what I'd been doing (inherited
from the previous GM) but that's probably a little low.)
I DO NOT agree that the removal of the professions is a good fix. It
makes sense to me to have the 'archetypes' in the game (especially since
it is of a more space opera vein) and allow some differentation in the
skills people can use. I know that it's not just as easy for me to
learn a language (see my webpage for language system) or Vehicles:
Atmospheric as it is for me to learn comsci or painting. I do think
that maybe allowing people to eventually change professions with some
sort of buy out penalty would be good. But just "buy whatever 'neat-o'
skills which give you the best survivalbility by the numbers all at the
same cost" leaves kinda a bad taste in my mouth.
I don't see the scispec and techex etc. system as crap. As they
mention, the spacer isn't included, which IMHO leaves the door open to
the group to create new professions. I felt the old-school AD
biosocialist wasn't given justice under explorer or scispec, so i
created the Biosocialist profession. I also created a Administrator
profession for a player who wanted a Vrusk corp suit type to play...of
course he's focussed his life on the pursuit of gain for his company in
administration....it seems silly he get's to get 'Weapons: Powered
Assault Armor' with the same cost as a Star Law Ranger.
Powered Assaul Armor, Vehicle Weaponry
In various Dragons. as far as ZG is concerned, they left out PAA, but
put it in dragon. The bionics, cybernetics, and robotics are all
missing and reported to maybe be in Gamma World's Epsilon Cyborg. The
vehicle stuff was in dragon. Take a look at my index (since I can't
post it from right here, anyway) of dragon articles (that I'm aware of)
since it seems you may not realise exactly what was once put out
there...
I once used the PAA rules in an adventure. If I'd have gone by the
rules, one suited person is capable of taking out any character party of
heavily armed beings travelling in an armed vehicle. just a TAD
overkill/out of balance.
Of course I'd much rather have robot/bionic/cybernetic rules.
Robot: all or mostly metal/wire/mechinical
bionic: attaching mechanical bits into livng creatures
cybernetic: robot with a flesh brain
(as far as I can make out from the rules as is...)
(did I ever tell you about my friend the dralasite who's body was stolen
and id eventually ended up with ids brain in a lowly streetsweeper
cybot?:)
roymeo
"A man walks into a bar. He says 'bartender, can I have a drink?' The
bartender says, 'I don't know. Can you?'"
--ancient Dralasite joke
Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:10:18 -0600
RE: Re: 2001: a space odyssey
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
At 12:57 AM 1/3/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
> I just saw two copies of this module in a local(ish) area store.
>It is based on the clarke book/movie, for Star Frontiers, and probably
>pretty pointless to play. But I thought i'd mention it anyway.
>they're both shrinkwrapped, and in good shape.
>mail me if you're interested in me picking one up for you...
>
>And since I have my universe file on my web page now, this is just a reminder
>that if you miss the planet postings, you can find them all there.
>http://www.public.iastate.edu/~roymeo/StarFron/sfpage.html for all the
>SF stuff I could fit into my account.
>
>also the Void article from ...someone else on the server...
>
>and the Clay O Rama rules. :)
>
>roymeo
>
>Thankyou but I'm looking for 2010. I have a photocopy but not the maps. It
is the only module I am missing. I found the void article while doing a net
search. TimC27@aol.com did it. I sent him some email but havent had aa
response. I am revamping the SF to conform with a d20 system and should be
getting the vehicular armament rules they did in Dragon Magazine.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:36:19 -0600
RE: Star Frontiers Classes
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
What you are saying is that I should use different areas like the scispec or
techex. I can go to college and learn any number of skills that I want to
while paying the same amount of money for each class I take. It should
reason to stand that a character in SF should be able to do the same thing
with out penalties. Thats how it goes in the rules I am creating. I've added
a few more skills that cost between 3 and 7 points to pick and 3 and 7
points to increase. Some skills still require prerequisites. I'd be loony
not to include those.
However, there can still be character templates for such people who like the
scispec, techex, etc...
Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:52:38 -0500
RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes
From: TimC27@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
I have always been,...uncomfortable,... with classes. I mean, what do they
mean, really?
The most natural systems are those that say I have fundamental talents, or
capacities, or whatever, and I build upon those. Also, one commonly
overlooked reason for developing certain abilities is mental/emotional
--compensation--. How many people achieve much because they feel like they
are overcompensating. Maybe this could be the basis for mechanics, rather
than an artificial 'class' system.
Does everyone go around calling themselves "Murray, the Techex"? Do they say
"I am a specialist in Techex"? "I got a degree from Flamerjam Community
College in "Techex-ology" If you are an engine mechanic, you are an engine
mechanic. And you could be a damn fine engine mechanic who can really wail
on a sax. Doesn't that feel, uhm, nicer? Oh, sure, you can have a
job-title, but today, that kind of guild-hall mentality of "I AM THIS THING"
is kinda passe. No? Today, we say, I have these skills, and if you are
willing to pay me a ton of credits, well, hell, call me whatever makes your
boat float (just don't call me late for dinner,...yuk yuk). Only the very
top of the line professional types--lawyers, architects, doctors (Dammit,
Jim, I'm a Med-spec, not a saxaphone repairman!)
And why isn't it "Sci-ex" or "Tecspec"?
Its late. going to bed.
TimC27
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 00:45:59 CST
RE: More on Professions <960103145736_105416651@emout05.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Indy/The Junkman said:
>I'm not sure about changing professions, myself. I think it's a bad
>idea. But the great thing about the game is, that it doesn't really
>matter--your character can buy any skill he wants! Sure, some skills
>are more expensive than others, but that's how it goes. Some people
>have different areas of expertise. If you allow people to change
>professions (at a penalty) you're going to have scenerios like this:
>I want to pick up (so and so) skills now (for example, Weapon skills)
>at a cost of 2X because they're out of my field; but if I change
>profession (at cost of Y), then work on learning those skills, and
>change back (at cost of Y <maybe Z>)--is X > 2Y (or Y+Z)? Hey, I'm
>changing my profession!
>That kind of leaves a bad taste in MY mouth...it would be really
>tempting to do, however. I don't THINK The Junkman would do that,
>but then he's been pretty annoyed that Weapons: Repair (and to a lesser
>extent, Communication Devices: Repair) aren't in the Techex field.
>Better to leave it alone...
>(And adjusting the cost to change profession merely changes the values
>of the variables in the scenerio above, it doesn't eliminate it.)
Of course i was thinking of it in terms of what would work
hypothetically, not what would work when I get a bunch of stupid number
crunching players. Even in a realistic sort of way, I suppose it would
be something I kept around in case a player made a sudden life-path
change and then I'd tell them about it. It wouldn't be something I let
them see and know about so they can calculate exactly when they wanted
to start crunching the numbers...
Hypothetically, does it make sense that an administrator Vrusk could
eventually become an explorer once she'd had a taste of adventure and
vowed never to climb behind a desk again?
]>(did I ever tell you about my friend the dralasite who's body was
]>stolen and id eventually ended up with ids brain in a lowly
]>streetsweeper cybot?:)
]Interesting...of course, according to the old Alpha Dawn rules (which
]are the only rules for robots, et al) that we have right now, they're
]limited to levels 4-6. Kind of expensive for a lowly streetsweeper, it
]seems. (In the 8 robot levels definitions I'm working on, I'd say
]they'd probably be 5+.)
Well, of course it was silly. Beaurcratic mix up or good way to get a
character with no player anymore out of the game as a scenario hook?
You make the call.
roymeo
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 01:27:43 CST
RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes <199601040236.UAA28192@n-link.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Darryl Fuller said:
>What you are saying is that I should use different areas
>like the scispec or techex. I can go to college and learn
>any number of skills that I want to while paying the same
>amount of money for each class I take. It should reason
>to stand that a character in SF should be able to do the
>same thing with out penalties. Thats how it goes in the
>rules I am creating.
Yes, you can go to school and learn about any subject they offer.
And do you know how many people actually do this? not many.
Forgetting about the few who take an eclectic course load, would
not be too out of line for a space-operaish game. Even then YOU
can pay MONEY for any class you would like. But money and experience
are far from being similar. And I bet you will
excell in some fields more than others. I bet some of those
classes you will need to study more for to keep the same grades.
Thus, you'll spend the same money, yet spend varying experience for the
same 'amount' of knowledge. I know that I'm a major anomoly because
I'm Art and Design and Computer Science. Even in my case, about 3
years ago I discovered I was probably an Artist with an interest in
computers rather than a 'duel-classed character'.
It makes sense to me that the com sci people in my classes aren't
very good at design. It makes sense to me that the art and design
people in my classes aren't very good at thinking mathematically.
Sure, ISU could merge the comsci-art programs, but I bet that even
being required to take all the classes I have, most of the people
excell in one area and find the other painful. It would also seem
the professions are much like this.
Ever gone to the career planning office? They have you take various
interest and aptitude tests to see where your interest lies.
I find the profession system in ZG to more realistically mimic this
sort of reality.
Tying the earlier post about letting people change professions,
you'll note that someone noted that easily changing professions
would allow people to number crunch. The professionless syste to me
seems to be the ultimate number crunching...no matter how out of
character the skill is, you can have it for the same cost as the
master of that skill.
As well, if you take away this 'penalty' for the vast number of skills
which are NOT in one's area, you are upping the ante. Your 40 point
characters may end up with the same skills my players need around 60
points to buy. I think this would sooner approach the problem of
Alpha Dawn. not too many points, and everyone has most of the skills
available.
roymeo
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 02:01:21 CST
RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes <960103223611_105932013@emout05.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
TimC27@aol.com said:
>I have always been,...uncomfortable,... with classes. I mean,
>what do they mean, really?
agreed. Classes are a way of differentating characters into
seperate and unique groups so that they are all generally necessary
in a group. This was done in the early days to make no one dispensible.
>The most natural systems are those that say I have fundamental
>talents, or capacities, or whatever, and I build upon those.
sounds like the Star Frontiers professions to me.
Fundamental talents are in your 'profession' area. it costs you more
to learn outside your 'talents'.
>Also, one commonly overlooked reason for developing certain
>abilities is mental/emotional --compensation--. How many people
>achieve much because they feel like they are overcompensating.
huh?
>Maybe this could be the basis for mechanics, rather than an
>artificial 'class' system.
I don't think the profession system is quite as bad as the class system
It is primarily a skill based system. It has some 'talent/focus'
framework on it, which is far from the class system.
------------------
----job titles----
------------------
>Does everyone go around calling themselves "Murray, the Techex"?
According to ZG, they do. They feel a bond for others of their
profession, Cadres, etc. etc. I didn't buy this line, either.
>Do they say "I am a specialist in Techex"? "I got a degree from
>Flamerjam Community College in "Techex-ology" If you are an
>engine mechanic, you are an engine mechanic. And you could be a
>damn fine engine mechanic who can really wail on a sax.
Well, my college has an engineering college. Are you in a technical
profession? You're using the labels provided too specifically.
Think of the number of specific jobs one could have under the
title 'artist'. Techex covers engine mechanics, fuel pump designers,
and everything else someone would likely be with the techex skills.
> Doesn't that
>feel, uhm, nicer? Oh, sure, you can have a job-title, but today,
>that kind of guild-hall mentality of "I AM THIS THING" is kinda
>passe.
Well, the cadres which aren't developed very well but the little they
are developed are that of a guild sort of thing. I think people are
becomming more focussed in their professions today rather than less.
I've seen colleges having to try to FORCE students to take a rounded
base of classes and a lot of student resistance to this. Maybe this
is where I seem to see that people are focussing more. Because I am
the opposite of this and the attention I seem to draw as an anomoly
makes me think it's a bigger issue than it is.
> No? Today, we say, I have these skills, and if you are
>willing to pay me a ton of credits, well, hell, call me whatever makes
>your boat float (just don't call me late for dinner,...yuk yuk).
"Wanted: someone with a lot of computer programming skills, algorithm
analysis skills, debug skills, critical mathematical and theoretical
modelling skills desired."
vs.
"Wanted: Computer Programmer"
all the people I know of looking for computer programmers don't seem
to be interviewing too many chemistry majors. why not? those
chemistry majors could have a lot of computer skills....Sure,
you'll accept any title I wanna call you if I pay you, but you're going
to have to get my attention to even consider hiring you. Calling
yourself
a wage-slut isn't going to do much as far as that goes.
> Only the very top of the line professional types--lawyers, architects,
>doctors (Dammit, Jim, I'm a Med-spec, not a saxaphone repairman!)
artists, vagrants (but I shouldn't use that, I should list their
skills!), prostitutes, administrators, programmers, sales-people,
parking attendants, etc. etc. Just as the career office has
documented proof...people change jobs and thus job titles (lawyer to
judge), but they generally stay in the nearby career-map area. Thus,
Administration, Technical, sales, care-giving are generally appropriate
long-term titles.
>And why isn't it "Sci-ex" or "Tecspec"?
>Its late. going to bed.
they sound funny.
roymeo
Thu, 04 Jan 96 13:33:59 EST
RE: RPGs (fwd) (fwd)
From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu>
To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu>
OK, last try. My original message about Thomas Fuller's d20 system
started by my statement that my group has switched from the complex
HERO game system to AD&D for simplicity reasons. Unfortunately, I sent
this twice and it got cut off both times. Here goes:
-----------Orignal Message, Cont.----------------------
...that take three hours each. Yes, a realistic and complex system is
HOPED for, but is rarely achieved without the +1 power advantage,
'playable.' Our group got so frustrated at trying to roleplay but ending
up spending most of the time hacking and slaying that we gave up and
are now in the midst of trying to play in a more 'simple' game.
Here are the advantages of first edition AD&D:
--FAST: At first level, heroes tend to kill things in about three or
four rounds, if they are lucky. However, those three or four rounds
can go very quickly. I know, I know, people have had rounds take
hours, but not if one limits the amount of modifiers one has.
If one knows that they need a 15+ on a d20 to hit and then do 1d8 damage
when they hit, combat goes VERY quickly. After about two rounds of
figuring out the ACs of the villains, combat goes as smooth as silk.
The point is that the DM should make bonuses rare.
Side Suggestion: don't use unearthed arcana and use the system
to roll up characters where you roll twelve
average people and pick the one you want.
--FLEXIBLE: The GM can easily add in modifiers for weird situations
and not greatly screw up time it takes to run. GM, if one ignores
certain rules, is free to make game go quickly.
And why is this? Because AD&D is a RESOLUTION system, not a
SIMULATION system. AD&D does not claim to be overly realistic.
AD&D claims to make someone who is a master swordsman trash
a beginner. Therefore, anything that makes things RESOLVE
quicker is better. Star Frontiers, in many ways is a RESOLUTION
SYSTEM. It adds a little bit more of realism, but the nice
feature about it is that it is both flexible and adequately
shows reality (unlike AD&D) but also resolves quickly (Well, theoretically)
So, for those of you out there who are making systems, here is my
personal advice: make resolution systems, not simulations. The
only REAL way to simulate is to either bog oneself down in rules
or actually get out there and beat the snot out of one another.
Make games playable. Do not make them take forever to simulate
OR resolve questions of whether something worked, or whether the
combatants were trashed or not. I would GUESS (and only guess) that
a combat should take about 15-20 minutes unless it is the climax of
the story, in which case it could take about 30 minutes. Combat
should be something that a player and character fidget about: either
for the expectation of combat or the hope to avoid combat. However,
if combat takes 3 hours, then one is never looking forward and feeling
stress because of it, but instead sloughing through the it.
SPECIFICALLY about Star Frontiers: The ONLY reason Star Frontiers
failsto be a quick resolution system is the damage one incurs when
one rolls the dice. Now, I am not trying to make an argument for
weapons doing more damage because it is not REALISTIC, but rather on
the basis of it taking too much TIME. If a character has an
automatic pistol and has a final skill in the Pistol of 60, and on
average 10 of those points go for cover, range, etc. then I will
have to roll 18 times to knock out the average person. That
combat is just too long! Now, add the fact that alien encounters
have around 200 stamina each, and the only way to resolve combat within
a year is to haul out the machineguns and Sonic Devestators.
Just try a combat with 20 average people tring to knock each
other out with fists. That is, try it if you have nothing better
to do on a saturday night.
So, to Mr. Fuller and all those trying to redo Star Frontiers, I suggest
trying to quicken the Resolution of combat and other things. If
that means increasing the damage of weapons, then all the better.
If a different way can be found (if one wants to keep the low-lethality
of weapons) then that would be good, too. Star Frontiers, though,
deserves to have a better system of resolution. Personally, I think
Star Wars does a good job of trying to keep the dice-rolls to
damage ratio playable while still keeping the game realtively low
lethality. If combat can be resolved semi-realistically and accuraltely
in four or five 'rounds' of fighting, then that would be the best of
all possible worlds. However, finding the mix of these elements is
the gamers' seven cities of gold...
me,
delmar watkins
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:06:03 -0600
RE: Star Frontiers Classes
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Okay, someone just said something that makes sense...hmmmm wonder who it
could be? If you go to college, you generally stay with one area of
knowledge. Not all people are gifted in many areas. So we could have classes
like the scispec or the techex (and I took a look at the Biosocialist). In
my system, skills generally cost between 3 - 7 points. However, I could
create the system to reflect a college type atmosphere in the manner of
classes. You would initially be limited to a certain number of skills you
could buy at regular price. And then if you wanted skills outside your
course load the would cost extra. Hows that?
Incidentally, It is possible to get killed with one shot in my rules. You do
have the dodge option though and modifiers for cover etc...
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:58:24 -0600
RE: SF Skills
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Here is a following list of skills I have devised for the d20 system of SF.
Accounting, Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Anthropology, Appraise, Archeology,
Area Knowledge, Architectrure, Armoury, Art, Astronomy, Bargain,
Bureaucracy, Biochemistry, Biology, Bluff, Body Language, Botany, Boxing,
Brawling, Business, Camouflage, Carousing, Carpenty, Chemistry, Climbing
Communications:Laser, Radio, Repair, Satellite, Scrambler, Subspace Radio
Computers:Operate, Program, Repair, Security
Cooking, Criminlogy, Cryptography, Cybernetics
Cyberspace Skills:Cyberdeck Operations, Cyberspace Combat, Cyberspace Programs
Diplomacy, Disguise
Driving:Hover Vehicles, Machinery, Motorcycle, Repair, Tracked Vehicles,
Wheeled Vehicles (for some reason I left out water borne vehicles, have to
include those later)
Ecology, Economics
Engineering:CIVIL:SEE ARCHITECTURE, Electronics, Military, Vehicles
Entertainment:Acting, Dancing, Musical Instrument, Poetru, Singing
Escape, Exobiology, Fast Draw, Fishing, Foraging, Forensics, Fogery,
Gambling, Gaming (RPG's and boardgames yeh!), Genetics, Goelogy, Geophysics,
History, Hunting, Instruction, Interrogation, Intimidation, Jeweler,
Journalism, Law, Leadership, Leatherworking, Lie Detection, Linguistics, Lip
Reading, Literacy (for alien writings, prerequisite:Linguistics appropriate
Language), Literature, Mathematics (all the way to calculus), Media
Medical:Devices, Diagnosis, First Aid, Pathology, Physiology (needed for
surgery, a must have to perform surgery on alien species), Surgery.
Metallurgy, Meteorology, Music, Navigation (on planet), Observation,
Occultism, Oration, Parachuting, Persuasion, Philosophy, Photography,
Physics, Pickpocketing
Piloting:Jet, Prop, Repair, Rotary Wing
Poisons, Politics, Pottery
Psychology:Hypnosis, Psychiatry (needed to prescribe drugs for psychotic
patients), Psychology (can't prescribe drugs)
Religion, Ride Mount, Running
Robotics:Identify, Modify, Program, Repair
Scrounging, Scuba, Sculpting
Security Systems:Deactivate, Detect, Operate
Sign Language, Skiing, Sociology
Spaceship Skills:Astrogation, Engineering, Gunnery-Beam Weapons (fixed),
Gunnery-Missile Weapons (fixed), Gunnery-Turreted Weapons, Piloting
Sports, Stealth, Strategy, Survival, Theology, Tracking, Traps
Weapons:Archery, Artillery, Axe, Beam Weapons, Crossbow, Demolitions, Direct
Fire Weapons, Grenades, Knife, Melee Weapons, Missiles, P.G.S. Weapons,
Powered Assault Armor, Sword, Thrown Weapons
Xenolgy, Zoology
That is a grand total of about 164 skills. If you think I should delete or
add skills email me.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 19:59:48 CDT
RE: RE: SF Skills
From: NATHAN FUTRELL <futrena@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Re: Darryl Fuller's Skill list
Very comprehensive, though, at a glance, I think you should have had a
rifle and pistol skill as separate skills and fencing is different
from other sword-play skills. Tell us more (or at least me).
John (ignore the info below)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Futrell | "That which does not kill us must have missed us."
The Madd Katt | ---Friedrich Nietzsche
futrena@WKUVX1.BITNET |
| "Is it me, or does Rush Limbaugh look like Jabba
| the Hut?" ---The Madd Katt (Bo shuda.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:27:25 CDT
RE: RE: Star Wars
From: NATHAN FUTRELL <futrena@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Star Wars is a pretty good game. I think someone posted a set of
rules for using SW to run SF a while back. Buy your Star Wars used if
you can. Avoid the guides for the movies and the Han Solo at Stars
End source book (I loved the Han Solo novels, but the sourcebook was
disappointing.
John.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Futrell | "That which does not kill us must have missed us."
The Madd Katt | ---Friedrich Nietzsche
futrena@WKUVX1.BITNET |
| "Is it me, or does Rush Limbaugh look like Jabba
| the Hut?" ---The Madd Katt (Bo shuda.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:12:28 -0500
RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-03 21:38:42 EST, you write:
>What you are saying is that I should use different areas like the scispec or
>techex. I can go to college and learn any number of skills that I want to
>while paying the same amount of money for each class I take. It should
>reason to stand that a character in SF should be able to do the same thing
>with out penalties. Thats how it goes in the rules I am creating. I've added
>a few more skills that cost between 3 and 7 points to pick and 3 and 7
>points to increase. Some skills still require prerequisites. I'd be loony
>not to include those.
>
>
Well, it doesn't really stand to reason. Are each of those classes as easy
for everybody, and does everybody learn the same amount from each? I'd say
no...the entire class doesn't make A's, I'm sure. Not in every single class
there is...
Actually, we use some rules for college with the standard Zebulon's skill and
profession rules. (Think color codes=grades...) There, it doesn't *cost*
any more to take a class (skill) out of your profession, but it's harder to
learn. (If the subject is in your PSA, you get a result shift on the grade
roll.) Of course, if you fail the course, you don't get any skill benefit.
You're talking about new skills that cost between 3 and 7 points...you
talking Alpha Dawn kind of skills/system?
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:12:39 -0500
RE: Re: More on Professions
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-04 03:52:12 EST, you write: (Roymeo)
>Of course i was thinking of it in terms of what would work
>hypothetically, not what would work when I get a bunch of stupid number
>crunching players. Even in a realistic sort of way, I suppose it would
>be something I kept around in case a player made a sudden life-path
>change and then I'd tell them about it. It wouldn't be something I let
>them see and know about so they can calculate exactly when they wanted
>to start crunching the numbers...
>
>Hypothetically, does it make sense that an administrator Vrusk could
>eventually become an explorer once she'd had a taste of adventure and
>vowed never to climb behind a desk again?
Well, I just had an idea on that score. Bearing in mind that anybody can
learn any skill, there's nothing preventing that Vrusk administrator from
suddenly deciding that she wanted to adventure and take explorer skills. Of
course, it'll cost her twice as much. After she's learned a number of
explorer skills with the double penalty (hard to say when; maybe a certain
number of skill levels, xp cost, or ratio between explorer to admin skills
goes over 1:1 or some such), make the character an explorer and able to buy
explorer skills for normal PSA cost, and all others (including admin skills)
at double.
This allows a character to change professions in the game, but prevents the
number crunching I was concerned about because A: the player doesn't control
exactly when the switch actually occurs; and B: the character has to pay
double cost for a number of skills before the switch occurs. This point cost
can be considered the cost of changing professions, but it is done in a
gradual way (and makes sense--you study hard at explorer skills, you find it
easier to learn them, eventually).
I'm tempted to stick this in my Star Frontiers notebook that I keep for
extending the rules. (And I just did.)
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:12:36 -0500
RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-04 04:28:34 EST, you write:
>Does everyone go around calling themselves "Murray, the Techex"? Do they
say
>"I am a specialist in Techex"? "I got a degree from Flamerjam Community
>College in "Techex-ology" If you are an engine mechanic, you are an engine
>mechanic. And you could be a damn fine engine mechanic who can really wail
>on a sax. Doesn't that feel, uhm, nicer? Oh, sure, you can have a
>job-title, but today, that kind of guild-hall mentality of "I AM THIS THING"
>is kinda passe.
Well, I don't know about others, but I (my character) has introduced himself
as a Techex. Except to higher ups in Pan-Gal, to whom he says he's the
leader of a security team from the Gran Quivera office. I suppose that not
everybody would identify themselves with their professional skill area that
closely; but my Vrusk pal didn't hang the nickname of 'The Junkman' on me for
nothing...
'Mr Human and his Indestructable Junk Show'....
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:47:18 -0500
RE: Re: More on Professions
From: TimC27@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
My problem with the 'double point cost' thing is that in real life, I might
find out I have a real talent for something that I never dreamed of. On the
otherhand, I might have not aptitude for something and waste enormous amounts
of time (points?) to no avail. The skill thing has never been adequately
simulated in this regard, imho.
In the real world, skills such as language actually become more difficult to
learn the older you get. Maybe the point cost for that should increase with
age. On the otherhand, politics and administration skills come more easily
to those who have been a little seasoned by life.
Maybe a system lies out there in the realm of the forms that is based on
APTITUDE and TALENT,
Opinions?
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:44:00 -0600
RE: Re: More on Professions
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
At 10:47 AM 1/5/96 -0500, you wrote:
>My problem with the 'double point cost' thing is that in real life, I might
>find out I have a real talent for something that I never dreamed of. On the
>otherhand, I might have not aptitude for something and waste enormous amounts
>of time (points?) to no avail. The skill thing has never been adequately
>simulated in this regard, imho.
>
>In the real world, skills such as language actually become more difficult to
>learn the older you get. Maybe the point cost for that should increase with
>age. On the otherhand, politics and administration skills come more easily
>to those who have been a little seasoned by life.
>
>Maybe a system lies out there in the realm of the forms that is based on
>APTITUDE and TALENT,
>
>Opinions?
>
>
I maybe wrong but I think this adds number crunching to a game I'm trying to
simplify into a d20 system.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:38:41 -0600
RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
>Well, it doesn't really stand to reason. Are each of those classes as easy
>for everybody, and does everybody learn the same amount from each? I'd say
>no...the entire class doesn't make A's, I'm sure. Not in every single class
>there is...
>
>Actually, we use some rules for college with the standard Zebulon's skill and
>profession rules. (Think color codes=grades...) There, it doesn't *cost*
>any more to take a class (skill) out of your profession, but it's harder to
>learn. (If the subject is in your PSA, you get a result shift on the grade
>roll.) Of course, if you fail the course, you don't get any skill benefit.
>
>You're talking about new skills that cost between 3 and 7 points...you
>talking Alpha Dawn kind of skills/system?
>
>Never go on an adventure without a hat!
> Indy
>
>IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
>
>
Each skill initially cost four points to buy. I am thinking about giving
30-40 points to improve the three abilities and buy skills. To upgrade a
skill would cost between 3 and 7 points. Each skill is a separate skill and
is not like AD for when you buy into a skill group you don't get all the
skills in that group. Some of the skills I listed fell into catagories for
convenience in referencing. The skill list is not complete as of yet. If I
include character *classes* like the techex, I'll need to break down the
skills into different areas of learning for each profession which is not
unreasonable.
After the player selects his skills he rolls a d20 and consults a chart that
gives him a score of 9-12? (I have to take a look at the chart again) to
reflect the learning curve. If a character goes to use that skill in what is
not a automatic success situation, he would roll a d20 and have to equal or
roll lower to achieve success (barring modifier).
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:50:29 -0600
RE: Starship Construction Rules
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Okay, I like the starship construction rules in Knight Hawks. But with the
S'something (some alien race using asteroids as ships) I beleive I saw a
hull size 40. Should I say that after hull size 20 add so many cubic meters
to the hull for each size above 20 or what. And what about fusion engines
for starships? What would be the stats on those? Any suggestions?
Taking care of the accelleration to 1% of lightspeed on the characters,
should I add a *gravity net* that equalizes the accelleration force g's to 1
or so no matter how fast you are accellerating? Opinions for updating the
Starship Construction rules are wanted.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 5 Jan 96 14:53:21 -0800
RE: Re: Starship Construction Rules
From: Andrew L Chang <changa2@watmail.ucr.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Is there any way I could get a summary of the topics that
have been disscussed for the past month. The school computer ate all
my mail. Thanks!
---
Andrew L Chang
**********************************************************************
The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. Love the Lord your God with
all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
**********************************************************************
Fri, 05 Jan 1996 23:13:14 CST
RE: Re: More on Professions <960105104716_32543153@emout06.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
re: chosing a profession which is hard for you & language and age
well, the easy way to remedy 'I'm in XXXXX but I'm best suited for
YYYYY' would be to give some sort of randomly assigned starting points.
instead of the standard 10, give 2d10. extend this to cover whatever
range you need.
sure, language is harder to learn when older in our world. We also
don't have hypnotraining, drug-amplifiers for learning, etc. etc.
They do. Of course I could see that 10 points (you can easily get more
than that in any of the modules) may be a little lean for someone who
has been through the US equivalent of High School. This would
expecially vary depending on the education system of the planet one is
raised on, and likely vary dramatically by how secure one's life was.
The rich kids from Triad aren't likely to have nearly as many survival
skills as the kids who are fighting for survival against prowling
dinosaurs on Pale or fighting against racist Pale Humans on New Pale.
roymeo
Sat, 06 Jan 96 13:43:37 -0800
RE: SF screen and mini-mod
From: thomas fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
I am interested in getting the SF scren and mini-mod. Anybody out there
have an extra one or know where to get one?
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:39:32 -0500
RE: Re: Starship Construction Rules
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-05 16:53:44 EST, you write:
>Taking care of the accelleration to 1% of lightspeed on the characters,
>should I add a *gravity net* that equalizes the accelleration force g's to 1
>or so no matter how fast you are accellerating? Opinions for updating the
>Starship Construction rules are wanted.
>
>Thankyou
>Darryl Fuller.
>
>
All items have a gravity field; smaller ones are much weaker, of course. But
if you assume that objects in contact with each other or inside a certain
gravity gradient with each other must enter the Void at the same time, the
weirdness noted in previous posts gets eliminated. From this, it could
follow that jumping can only be done beyond a certain (large) distance from
stars and planets so that the gravity decrement is very nearly flat...if
another ship got close enough, it might prevent jumping as well. The problem
with this approach is calculating the neccessary numbers for gravitational
attraction between objects, and deciding where the cutoff should be.
If you can consider 'air' to be in contact with itself and anything in it,
perhaps just ruling that objects in contact must jump or not jump
simultaneously would work. Hey, we're assuming that objects past .1C leave
the universe, so maybe this isn't such a big leap after all...
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:39:30 -0500
RE: Re: More on Professions
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-05 16:46:17 EST, you write: Darryl Fuller
>>My problem with the 'double point cost' thing is that in real life, I might
>>find out I have a real talent for something that I never dreamed of. On
the
>>otherhand, I might have not aptitude for something and waste enormous
>amounts
>>of time (points?) to no avail. The skill thing has never been adequately
>>simulated in this regard, imho.
>>
>>In the real world, skills such as language actually become more difficult
to
>>learn the older you get. Maybe the point cost for that should increase
with
>>age. On the otherhand, politics and administration skills come more easily
>>to those who have been a little seasoned by life.
>>
>>Maybe a system lies out there in the realm of the forms that is based on
>>APTITUDE and TALENT,
>>
>>Opinions?
>>
>>
>I maybe wrong but I think this adds number crunching to a game I'm trying to
>simplify into a d20 system.
>
I think you're wrong...this was talking about learning and buying skills, not
the resolution of actions/combat. The system, d20 or otherwise, is something
a bit different; it has nothing to do with classes, profession, etc which is
what the other writer was discussing (evidenced by the title). There are two
separate issues; that of resolution of actions and that of
professions/learning skills. Let's not get them mixed up.
In regards to trying to simplify SF into a d20 system--IMO, the system is
already about as simple as I can imagine it being. It could be *changed*,
sure; I really don't see the point. If I was going to change the combat
system (and I think it works okay as it is in ZG), I'd use the Top
Secret/S.I. rules; except that then all the weapon damages would have to be
divided by 10 (well, the lasers especially; autopistols, gyrojets and most
primitive melee weapons probably shouldn't be reduced as much, but that's
another thread). If you've just *gotta* use d20's, divide all the numbers to
be rolled by 5, then use a d20 instead of percentile dice. If you want a
completely different resolution system, than I think you're on your own, as I
don't recall anybody else on the list saying that they thought the system
needs changing (Though somebody used Star Wars rules, I think, and somebody
else used GURPS...unless I'm thinking of some other group.)
I mean, how much simpler do you want? One roll determines if you hit AND how
much damage you do. I suppose you could go diceless...but that's a whole
other discussion and one I don't know anything about, really.
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:39:35 -0500
RE: Re: More on Professions
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-06 00:14:33 EST, you write: Roymeo
>sure, language is harder to learn when older in our world. We also
>don't have hypnotraining, drug-amplifiers for learning, etc. etc.
>They do. Of course I could see that 10 points (you can easily get more
>than that in any of the modules) may be a little lean for someone who
>has been through the US equivalent of High School. This would
>expecially vary depending on the education system of the planet one is
>raised on, and likely vary dramatically by how secure one's life was.
As I said earlier, we've been giving new players 20 points to start with
(except for the mentalist, I think...I'd have to check on that...I think he
got the starting levels of disciplines and another 10 points). Roymeo, I
think you said before that you gave out 30-50 points, somewhere in that
range, I don't know what the rest of you are doing. I think 20 points can
build a not unreasonable skill list for a college person, though. Then
again, I started my character in Alpha Dawn where you got two skills and that
was it; true, for most of them you got a number of subskills--but
enforcer/military types didn't get that with weapon skills at all. So I
don't see the need to start characters knowing huge lists of skills.
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:36:45 -0600
RE: SF Knight Hawks movement
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Okay, it is agreed that 1 hex on the map represents 10,000 km and that .1c
is 12 million km/sec. In KH a turn is 10 minutes. A ship with an ADF of 5
could accelerate at (a little brain power being applied)approximately
3km/sec. (enough g's to squash a body?) 83 into 12,000,000 goes roughly
140,000 seconds or 233 10 minute turns or roughly 40 hours of acceleration
to reach .1c. Takes longer for those slower ships. I wouldn't think it would
take the sophisticated computers of SF to figure out when to enter the void.
With a gravity net, your body would be put under whatever g's you selected
(Captain, give me 1 g thankyou very much) but you would still be travelling
at the necessary speed to enter the Void. You wouldn't be under so much
pressure from the g's (damnit boss, give me one more reason to shoot u).
Also instead of having to accelerate for 40 hours (with an ADF of 5 mind
you), create a tachyon field around the ship that would suddenly accelerate
it to the necessary speed once the nav computer (Let the computer do it,
just reduce the time to double check it.) figured out where you were going.
This is sci-fi after all.
Granted I didnt double check the math.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:03:23 -0600
RE: entering the void
From: roymeo@iastate.edu
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Just a month or two ago we had a big debate on exactly what was
required to enter the void.
synopsis for newer people:
The rules state a .01C speed required to enter the void.
The rules also state that a trip takes a number of days equal to
the light year seperation, with half being acceleration, a couple minutes to
spin the ship around and void, half being decelleration.
Thus, we have a contradiction. We have a single speed stated which would
only take approximately 2 days to reach (thus all trips are 4 days long) or
we have the days of acelleration = 1/2LY seperation (thus the speed isn't
a set number).
I've got all the old posts of discussion if anyone wants them and doesn't
want to bother with the archives...send email to me (not the group).
roymeo
(soon will be a consolidation of auctions dealing with SF stuff)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:47:30 -0600
RE:
From: roymeo@iastate.edu
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
These are the auctions I found on rec.games.frp.marketplace that I
noticed as having Star Frontiers related stuff. They've been trimmed
down to remove other stuff. I don't know any of these people, so, as
always, buyer beware.
=====================================================================
From: dking@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca (Don King)
Subject: DON KINGS AUCTION UPDATE....RIFTS/SHADOWRUN/NON D&D .. DEC30
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 01:08:23 GMT
STAR FRONTIERS
***********************
MAIN BOXXED RULES: ALPHA DAWN
Condition:2
Min Bid:$2.50
High Bid:$2.50
High Bidder:koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol)
Next High Bid:
Next High Bidder:
KNIGHTHAWKS BOXXED RULES
Condition:2
Min Bid:$2.50
High Bid:$2.50 going...
High Bidder:Shawn Liddick s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu
Next High Bid:
Next High Bidder:
SF1 VOLTURNUS, PLANET OF MYSTERY
Condition:2
Min Bid:$1.00
High Bid:$1.00
High Bidder:koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol)
Next High Bid:
Next High Bidder:
SF2 STARSPAWN OF VOLTURNUS
Condition:2
Min Bid:$1.00
High Bid:$1.00
High Bidder:koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol)
Next High Bid:
Next High Bidder:
SF3 SUNDOWN ON STARMIST
Condition:2
Min Bid:$1.00
High Bid:$1.00 going...
High Bidder:Shawn Liddick s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu
Next High Bid:
Next High Bidder:
REFEREE SCREEN
Condition:2
Min Bid:$1.00
High Bid:$2.00
High Bidder:William K. McCarthy egn2@columbia.edu
Next High Bid:$1.00
Next High Bidder:Shawn Liddick s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu
ZEBULONS GUIDE VOL 1
Condition:2
Min Bid:$3.50
High Bid:$3.50
High Bidder:Mike drgntrov@mars.superlink.net
Next High Bid:
Next High Bidder:
==================================================================
From: progich@ix.netcom.com(Philip Rogich )
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace,rec.games.board.marketplace
Subject: Bid or Buy Auction: RPGs, War Games & Gaming Magizines
Date: 2 Jan 1996 19:25:32 GMT
This auction is a on going auction run by Collecters Connection (owned
by Philip Rogich). I get new item in all the time. If you don't see
what you want ask or check back latter. This is a bid or buy auction
you may start the biding at the min bid or buy the item out right at
the buy price. All bids must be in whole US dollars.
Star Frontiers
SF2 Starspawn of Volturnus Bid $3 Buy $6
SFKH1 Dramune Run Bid $3 Buy $6
SFKH3 Face of the Enemy Bid $3 Buy $6
======================================================================
From: moosemos@ix.netcom.com(Bill Jermacans )
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Subject: AD&D and other RPGs REDUCED!
Date: 2 Jan 1996 22:07:29 GMT
***Boxed sets ($8 each)***
Star Frontiers Knight Hawks (TSR)
============================================================================
From: ryohib@vianet.on.ca (Jack Skellington)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Subject: WANTED : Star Frontiers
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 09:03:24 GMT
Title says it all...looking to buy TSR's old SF game, main system, and
expansions.
Anyone interested in selling, please contact : ryohib@vianet.on.ca
===========================================================================
From: koziol@xongmao.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol)
Subject: Misc. Old & New RPG supplements and magazines for sale (1/5/96)
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Date: 5 Jan 1996 21:50:54 GMT
______________________________________________________________________________
Discounts:
$100-$199 = 5% Discount $300-$399 = 15% Discount
$200-$299 = 10% Discount $400+ = 20% Discount
4th class/surface shipping free for all purchases over $200
______________________________________________________________________________
Note: The most current version of this listing can also be found on my web-site:
http://hawkwind.ncsa.uiuc.edu/
Ares:
17[$8, N]
[[contains yazirian cultural weapon (Zamira) and
Miniature Use]-roy]
[[these are all the dragons he has that has Star Frontiers info in them
as far as I know. following this post, I'll send my Star Frontiers
Index so you can see easily what is in each magazine.]-roy]
DRAGON:
74[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], [$3, Fa], (insert loose)[$5.5, VF], (photocopy of "AD&D Combat Computer")[$5, VF]
84[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], (insert loose, back water-damaged)[$2.5, G]
85[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], (insert loose)[$4, F]
86[$5, F], (insert loose)[$4, F], (missing cardboard castle)[$5, NM], (missing castle insert)[$4, F]
87[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G]
88[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], ("Elefant Hunt" game punched but included)[$4, F], (photocopy "Elefant Hunt" game)[$4, VF], (photocopy "Elefant Hunt" game, cover loose)[$1, P]
89[$7, NM], [$6, VF], (insert loose)[$4, F]
90[$6, VF], [$5, F]
91[$6, VF], [$5, F]
92[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G]
93[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G]
94[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$3, Fa], [$2, P], (insert loose)[$5, VF]
95[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], [$3, Fa], (cover detached)[$2, P], (insert loose)[$5, VF]
96[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$4, G], (cover detached)[$3, G], (cover detached)[$2, P]
97[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], (cover loose)[$3, G], (cover detached)[$2, P],
98[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], (cover detached)[$2, P]
99[$6, VF], [$4, G], [$2, P], (insert loose)[$4, F], (cover detached)[$2, P]
102[$6, NM], [$5, VF], (insert loose)[$4, VF], (cover detached)[$2, P]
103[$6, NM], [$3, G], (cover detached)[$2, G], (photocopy _Unearthed Arcana_ update)[$3, VF], (photocopy of "Unearthed Arcana Update")[$2.5, G], (cover loose)[$2.5, G]
104[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$3, G], (photocopy "Sudden Dawn" Marvel module)[$3, VF], (cover loose)[$2.5, G]
105[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G], (photocopy "Betrayed!" AD&D module)[$3, VF], (cover loose)[$3.5, F]
107[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G] [$1, P], (cover loose)[$1.5 Fa]
108[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G], [$2, Fa]
109[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], 109[$3, G]
110[$5, VF], [$4, F]
112[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$2, Fa]
115[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G]
120[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G]
122[$6, NM], [$3, G], [$2, Fa]
123[$5, VF]
124[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F]
125[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$3, G]
129[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G]
132[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], (orcwars game punched but included)[$3, F]
135[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F]
136[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G]
139[$6, NM], [$5, VF]
144[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F]
149[$6, NM], [$5, VF]
(Star Frontiers)
Star Frontiers Boxed Set (no box) (?) [$4, F]
Star Frontiers Expanded Game Rules (?) [$2, P]
Star Frontiers Knighthawks Boxed Set (contains Alpha Dawn Set also, punched) (7011) [$10, Box Fa-Contents F]
Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn Boxed Set (contains Knight Hawks Set also, punched) (7011) [$10, Box Fa-Contents F]
2001: A Space Odyssey (7815) [$16, N], [$15, VF]
2010: Odyssey Two (7816) [$15, N], [$13, VF]
SF1: Volturnus, Planet of Mystery (7801) [$6, F], [$5, G]
SF2: Starspawn of Volturnus (7802) [$7, VF]
SF3: Sundown on Starmist (7803) [$7, VF]
SFAC1: Character Record Sheets (7800) [$5, NM]
SFKH1: Dramune Run (7805) [$7, VF]
SFKH2: Mutiny on the Eleanor Moraes (1/3 of Beyond the Frontier) (7808) [$8, NM], [$7, VF]
SFKH3: Face of the Enemy (2/3 of Beyond the Frontier) (7810) [$8, NM], [$7, VF]
[[quincy seems to be making a living off of buying cheap at auctions and
selling the stuff he's bought. If you can find anything anywhere else,
I'd encourage it. (especially since he's outbid me at an auction only
to sell off the exact items later...)]-roy]
=================================================================
roymeo
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:51:11 -0600
RE: Star Frontiers Index
From: roymeo@iastate.edu
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
as always, I'm not sure that I have everything here, so if you have or
know of something I've missed, PLEASE let me know.
Alpha Dawn Boxed Set
Basic Rules
Expanded Rules
Map, 2d10, Counters
SF0 Crash On Volturnus Module
Knight Hawks Boxed Set
Tactical Operations Manual
Campaign Book
Map, 2d10, Counters
SFKH0 Warriors of White Light
SFAC1 Character Sheets (AD)
SFAC2 ?? Referee's Screen + Assault on Starship Omicron Mini-Mod
SFAC3 Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space
SF1 Volturnus Planet of Mystery
SF2 Starspawn of Volturnus
SF3 Sundown on Starmist
SF4 Mission to Alcazzar
SF5 Bugs In The System
SF6 Dark Side of the Moon
SFKH1 Dramune Run
SFKH2 Mutiny on the Eleanor Moraes
SFKH3 Face of the Enemy
SFKH4 The War Machine
2001 A Space Odyssey
2010 Odyssey Two
_ENDLESS QUEST Books_: These are about a Jr High reading level.
#8 Villains of Volturnus
#17 Captive Planet
#24 Mission on Artule (exceptionally BAD, Earth is in the system, no other
UPF character races but 6 anon. Yaz thugs. Not really StarFron)
__DRAGON MAGAZINE__
__TITLE__ __SUBJECT__ __SOURCE__
Blastoff! First Look at SF Review Dragon 65
The SF 'Universe' Detailed Review Dragon 74
Zethra, The New Race Dragon 84
StarQuestions Q&A (from Polyhedrons) Dragon 85
Fast and Deadly Starships Dragon 86
Freeze! Star Law! Law Enforcement Dragon 87
Battle of Ebony Eyes Mini-Mod, Black Holes Dragon 88
StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 88
Yachts and Privateers Return Starships Dragon 88
The Mighty Mega-Corporations Mega-Corps, History(in Zeb) Dragon 89
Mega-Corporations o.t. Frontier Mega-Corps, History(in Zeb) Dragon 90
Careers in Star Law Law Enforcement Dragon 91
Day of the Juggernaut Mini-Mod, Huge Ship Dragon 91
StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 92
Rare Wines and Ready Cash Agricultural Trade Dragon 93
From Anarchy to Empire Governments Dragon 94
Zuraqqor Strike Back, The New Race, Mini-Mod, Starships Dragon 95
Coming of the S'sessu, The New Race, Sathar Dragon 96
StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 97
StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 98
Volturnus Connection, The Volturnus Dragon 98
Tanks a Lot! Vehicle Combat Dragon 99
SilverTwin Star Law Enforcement, Vehicle Dragon 102
Saurians, The New Race Dragon 103
Tanks Again! Vehicle Combat Dragon 103
Star Law Returns Law Enforcement Dragon 104
Expanding the Frontier Exploring Dragon 105
Tote That Barge! Interstellar Economics Dragon 107
Old Yazirians Never Die Age and Aging Dragon 108
Patriots, Terrorists, & Spies Cults Dragon 109
Going For a Swim? Underwater Adventures Dragon 110
For a Fistfull of Credits New Items Dragon 112
Interstellar Armory, A New Starship Arms Dragon 115
Here Comes the Cavalry Warfare Dragon 120
Leader of the Pack, The Leadership Dragon 122
Whole-Earth Ecology, The Aliens Dragon 123
Shot in the Arm, A Damage System Dragon 124
Second Look at Zebulon's Guide Zeb Guide Errata Dragon 125
Armored and Dangerous Powered Armor Dragon 129
Frontiers of Design, The Starship Building System Dragon 132
Sage Advice Q&A, AD, Zeb Guide Dragon 135
Damage Control--Report! Starship Combat Dragon 136
("Jetboots, Dont fail me now!") revised movement rules (Dragon 139)
Sage Advice Q&A, DD, ADD, SF Dragon 144
From Freighters to Flying Boats Ships, Boats, Ocean Dragon 149
__POLYHEDRON NEWSZINE (RPGA)__
9 SF review:pg5 + Encounters:pg8
10 dispel confusion:pg7 [&dc]
(11) (dispel confusion:pg9)
(12) (KH 'feature' review?:pg14) + [dispel confusion:pg12]
(13) (Raid on Theseus KH:pg20) + (dispel confusion:pg7)
14 Ambush on Lossend SF:pg22-23 + dispel confusion:pg11
(15) (cardstock reference sheet KH) + (dispel confusion:pg13)
(16) (dispel confusion:pg32-33)
(17) [dispel confusion:pg32-33]
18 Layover at Lossend SF:pg25 + dispel confusion:pg30-31 [&dc]
(19) (The Laser Pod KH:pg28-29) + (dispel confusion:pg32)
(20) The Proton Beam:pg8-9 + dispel confusion:pg30
(21) Take Command of a Titan!:pg10-11
(22) Of Great Ships and Captains:p26-28 + dispel confusion:pg25
(27) dispel confusion:pg26
(31) (dispel confusion:pg29)
NOTE: I do not own anything in ()'s
scanned softcopy in []'s
__Ares Magazine__
(14) ???
(15) Von Neumann machines, Into the Void module
17 Yazirian Cultural Weapon + Miniature Use
(Ares Special Edition #2) Frontiers of the Mind(psionics)
__Miniatures__
Spacefarers (12)
Player Characters/Spacers(?) (12)
Robots (6)
Federation Ships (6)(with miniatures rules conversions)
Sathar and Pirate Ships (6)
(Yachts and Privateers(6))
(Vehicles) (vaporware??: rules for new vehicles like grav tanks)
(various blisterpacks)
__THE LIVING GALAXY__ (from POLYHEDRON)
Database Is Your Friend, The Polyhedron 51
Brainstorming The Universe Polyhedron 52
No Two Urban Jungles Should Be Alike Polyhedron 53
Satellites: Part 1 Polyhedron 54
Satellites: Part 2 Polyhedron 55
Opponents Make The World Go Round Polyhedron 57
The Alienization of Alien Nations Polyhedron 58
Recycling Planets Polyhedron 59
Spacecraft PC, Part I Polyhedron 60
Spacecraft PC, Part II Polyhedron 61
Spacecraft PC, Part III Polyhedron 62
Flawed Gems Shine The Brightest Polyhedron 63
Death Takes A Holiday Polyhedron 64
A Thrill in Every Port Polyhedron 65
All That Glitters Sure Is Nice: Part I Polyhedron 66
All That Glitters Sure Is Nice: Part II Polyhedron 67
To The Stars Polyhedron 68
Do Starships Dream Of Jumpspace sheep? Polyhedron 69
Better Heroes, Better Cities Polyhedron 70
A Little Planet Looks Awfully Big Close Up: Part 1 Polyhedron 71
A Little Planet Looks Awfully Big Close Up: Part 2 Polyhedron 72
No World Like Home Polyhedron 73
A Sprinkling of Stardust: Odds and Ends for Campaigns Polyhedron 74
Case of the Missing Adventures Polyhedron 75
Save the Last Danse Macabre For Me Polyhedron 76
Adventures From Your Library, Part 1 Polyhedron 77
Weirdo SF Adventurers Polyhedron 78
Ice Dwarfs and Magsails Polyhedron 79
Barbarian Planets I Polyhedron 80
Barbarian Planets II Polyhedron 81
A Stellar Game Master Is Made, Not Born Polyhedron 82
Stellar Game Master, Part 2 Polyhedron 83
Reshaping History For Fun And Games Polyhedron 84
In The National Interest: Countries On Other Worlds Polyhedron 85
Flora, Fauna, And The Alien Question Polyhedron 86
Creating NPC's for Adventures Polyhedron 87
Not Quite 101 Uses For A Dead Module(using SF Modules) Polyhedron 88
Epic Campaigns: one Polyhedron 89
Epic Campaigns: two Polyhedron 90
Epic Campaigns: three Polyhedron 91
Times Three Adventure Creation Method Polyhedron 92
One-Character Adventures: one Polyhedron 93
One-Character Adventures: two Polyhedron 94
Military History and Science Fiction Campaigns Polyhedron 95
Many Aliens of Earth, The Polyhedron 96
Whither The Weather? Polyhedron 97
Idea Catcher: Generating Ideas Polyhedron 98
New View of Space Colonies Polyhedron 99
Fantasy Fixes for SF Gaming's Black Holes Polyhedron 101
Carrots, Sticks, and Mysteries in Space Polyhedron 103
TV Shows: one Polyhedron 104
TV Shows: two Polyhedron 105
TV Shows: three Polyhedron 106
Adventure Driver Polyhedron 107
Alternate Histories: one Polyhedron 108
Alternate Histories: two Polyhedron 109
Alternate Histories: three Polyhedron 110
roymeo
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~roymeo/StarFron/sfpage.html
itemlist.html (this list)
Fri, 5 Jan 96 09:30:34 EST
RE: RE: entering the void
From: "Eric Pawtowski" <dpawtows@vt.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In Message Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:03:23 -0600, roymeo@iastate.edu writes:
>
>Just a month or two ago we had a big debate on exactly what was
>required to enter the void.
>
>synopsis for newer people:
>The rules state a .01C speed required to enter the void.
>The rules also state that a trip takes a number of days equal to
>the light year seperation, with half being acceleration, a couple minutes to
>spin the ship around and void, half being decelleration.
We've adopted a completely different style. To make a journey via
the void (or hyperspace):
1.Achieve a good velocity relative to the local gravity well. Equal to
about a few hours acceleration at basic freighter accelerations.
2. Let computer spend a while thinking about hyperspace co-ordinates and
activate jump engines. Ship dissapears from normal space, appears in
hyperspace. The jump engines are a black box in the engineering section
that provides no thrust but takes a lot of power.
3.Fly through hyperspace. Engines are not used. Normal times of one day
per light-year are what you get when you coast from fly point to point.
That time can be trimed by up to half if you use your engines and "surf"
the gravitational gradients properly. There are no know insturments that
can detect gravitational gradients in hyperspace. Lately, however, a few
random expierences hyperspace pilots have developed the ability to feel
gravitational gradients without insturments. None of them know how they
do it. It works in normal space, too- they can tell if a freighter is
carrying an extremely dense cargo just by being near it, for instance.
The UPF is *VERY* interested in how this works, but have had no luck
figureing it out. Trying to use your engines without the ability to
sense gravitational fields tends to do unpredicable things to your course,
you rarely end up anywhere near where you thought you were.
4. Exit hyperspace by activating jump engines at your destination.
Areas of hyperspace that correspond to gravity wells in real space (10,000
km in real space per Earth mass) are not navagable.
5. Use engines to compensate for velocity differences- you exit hyperspace
with the same velocity (relative to the galactic core) that you had when
you entered.
As most of you can probably tell, this is based heavily off of the way
that hyperspace works in "Babylon 5". The bit about being able to
"feel" through hyperspace is an ongoing plot point. The PC team's pilot
reciently developed that ability, and we know of three or four other
civilian pilots who can do it.
We also found a particularly bizzare form of hyperspace travel that
works hundreds of times faster than normal hyperspace travel, but only
when moving along a cosmic string. There is only one known string in
known space- one end passes through a black hole (ships going that way are
destroyed) the other end terminates at the border of a nasty race of
living rock-people who tried invading UPF space once. The rock people were
not aware that there is any kind of hyperspace travel other than the cosmic
string kind. They were a fun bunch. Main weapons were electrolasers.
Eric
--
epawtows@vt.edu---------------------------------------------------
Technicon 13- SF&F return to the New River Valley in SW VA!
March 22-24, 1996! L.E. Modesitt, Lori&Corey Cole, Ruth Thompson
Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:54:29 -0500
RE: Re: entering the void
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-06 23:21:03 EST, you write:
>synopsis for newer people:
>The rules state a .01C speed required to enter the void.
>The rules also state that a trip takes a number of days equal to
>the light year seperation, with half being acceleration, a couple minutes to
>spin the ship around and void, half being decelleration.
>
>Thus, we have a contradiction. We have a single speed stated which would
>only take approximately 2 days to reach (thus all trips are 4 days long) or
>we have the days of acelleration = 1/2LY seperation (thus the speed isn't
>a set number).
The length of the trip as stated (1 day per ly) is the time required by the
rules to calculate the jump safely (KH). A ship may well be able to
accelerate up to .1c and jump before that time; but either the calculations
aren't finished and the ship misjumps (NOT a good idea) or the calculations
are rushed and you might end up where you want; but you might not (the odds
depend on the skill of the astrogator and by how much the calculation time
was shortened).
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:17:51 -0600
RE: Starship Construction
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Okay, heres what I am going to do: I am going to add a *gravity net* that
equalizes the g force of acceleration inside the ship so that characters
don't get crushed. Also crew cabins are going to take up 6 cubic meters.
That makes for a 3m x 2m room. Each cubic meter of ship is going to take up
.5 metric tons. The bridge is going to seat 3 cubic meters per crew and take
up 5% of the total ship volume to account for ship computers and equipment.
A *Tachyon Field Generator* (or a little black box as someone put it) will
be added. It will no longer take acceleration to .1c to make a jump. Instead
the *Tachyon Field Generator* will instantly propel the ship into the Void.
It will take 1 day per lite year to reach the destination. Of course it
still depends on your navigation computer in how much time it takes to
compute the course. This will be measured in turns instead of hours. I'm
sure todays technology as demonstrated by Star WArs (SDI) and interferometer
techniques can make that possible. The question is, should there be a
minimum speed achieved and should you be at least one diameter away from a
planet to attempt a jump. Engines will be powerplants to provide power to
shipboard equipment. Fusion engines are being added. Anyone want to enter
there stats of what a fusion engine should cost and do feel free.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Sun, 07 Jan 1996 22:23:10 CST
RE: Re: entering the void <960107185402_109319330@emout05.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Indy said:
>The length of the trip as stated (1 day per ly) is the time required by
>the rules to calculate the jump safely (KH). A ship may well be able
>to accelerate up to .1c and jump before that time; but either the
>calculations aren't finished and the ship misjumps (NOT a good idea) or
>the calculations are rushed and you might end up where you want; but you
>might not (the odds depend on the skill of the astrogator and by how
>much the calculation time was shortened).
Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each light-year
that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25.
So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to
program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days
travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days
decelleration.
The 1/2 LY acc/dec is supported by the cover of the Warriors of White
Light module as well.
roymeo
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:03:03 +1100
RE: Re: entering the void
From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
G'day Folks!
romeyo@iastate.edu writes :
> So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to
> program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days
> travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days
> decelleration.
>
> The 1/2 LY acc/dec is supported by the cover of the Warriors of White
> Light module as well.
... and by some basic calculations. I did a mini-scenario recently in which
an understanding of the mechanics of a void-jump was rather crucial. After
reading carefully the descriptions in Alpha Dawn and Zebulon's Guide, I
realised too that the actual time in the void was measured in seconds, not
days. On this assumption, and the description of the acceleration/
deceleration process described, I calculated how long an average ship would
take to accelerate from a stationary attitude (relative to a nearby star)
to 0.1c, assuming an acceleration of 1g. The time taken was about 3.5 days.
Thus, a jump (any jump) should take between 7 and 8 days.
I thought this was pretty cool, considering the average jump is about 8 days.
Just to check, I calculated the average distance covered during this
acceleration phase. If the ship was leaving Earth, it would be ready to
enter the void near the orbit of Jupiter. This supports the need for a jump -
vast distances are still covered in the actual jump rather than in the
accelerating to the jump.
In the mini-module, one second of travel in the void covered one light-year.
The characters were supposed to be travelling along a known starlane, and
their jump was supposed to be eight seconds long. However, a malfunction
in ther drive computer caused the jump to be closer to 40 seconds long (Gasp!)
This >just happened< to put them deep into Sathar territory...
Have I already told you guys this stuff? Did I tell you about the two Vrusk
having sex while the jump was happening?
Romeyo goes on to say :
> Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each light-year
> that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25.
Why so long, especially if the route is well travelled (and thus assumed
to be well documented)? Surely a well-known route can just be downloaded
from publically accessible databases?
- Wes
Sun, 07 Jan 1996 23:13:36 CST
RE: Re: entering the void <9601080503.AA02949@durin>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
I agree with wes, generally the known starlanes should have astrogation
programs which give a second to second calculation of the route
downloadable for a small (or exhorbitant) fee.
but, 'by the rules' the astrogator would have to spend 10 hours per
light year (+ time for sleep, etc.).
My vision of the programmed calculations would likely be for a certain
time-frame for the ship (and not able to be reliably purchased very far
ahead). Happen to run into pirates on the way to jump velocity? Going
to have to pay for new calculations.
These calculations would probably be able to be modified by an
astrogator for less than the 10hr/LY...
Of course if the Malthar doesn't like you, he could have your ship fed
really bad coordinates.
roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 96 01:59:35 EST
RE: MECH: travel, d20, and TS SI
From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu>
To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu>
I will discuss the folling:
space travel
d20 system and damage
SPACE TRAVEL: OK, Ok, anyone with half of a brain has looked at the
two sets of rules on void travel and gone, 'huh?'. So, let's finally
agree to some basic ways one can settle the problem of void tavel.
ASSUMPTIONS
1) travel in space has no 'inertial dampener' like in Star Trek.
As per relativity, inertia is basically ewual to gravity, so when
we accelerate at 1g, that means we feel 1 earth gravity of force
pulling at our mass (which is now equal to our weight). Travel at
more than 1g is uncomfortable in the long run, and (I guess) 5g
travel for more than a few minutes is impossible. Long term
high g acceleration is impossible.
2) At around .1 of the speed of light, some sort of field, device, or
other means kicks in, whether caused by building materials, drives,
or WHATEVER (be creative) so that a ship enters the void and
goes FTL (Note that in one solution below, this assumption does
not apply). This assumption makes sure matter in the 'natural'
world does not 'evaporate' at .1 g, but still allows for void jumps.
OK, so what does that mean? That means that, according to this, ALL of
the SF and KH stats are wrong. Great. Here are ways to fix the problem:
1) Ships that go farther take a greater amount of speed. Guess what?
A ship that is going 8 LY away takes (gasp!) * 4 * days of acceleration
and 4 days of decelleration. OK, the .1 LY speed is violated,
but isn't that a small price to pay for consistancy in ALL of the rest
of the material? Also, as a consequence, hexes may have to be
changed from 10,000 kilometers to some other size, but who cares?
honostly, who out there has made it a POINT to make every hex
10,000 KM, and any deviation will just ruin their game?
2) Void travel is not instantaneous. It takes a minimal amount of
acceleration to get to 'jump' speed (or heck, the speed is the
same but each jump takes at least 3.5 days EACH of acc/dec) is
very low, but while in void travel one moves approximately
1 LY a day. Everything published works, except for the idea
of a 'jump' that takes only 15 seconds.
3) Accerlation takes 3.5 days, decceleration an equal amount, and
this is the same for all jumps. NOT consistant with the figures in
the books, but DOES keep intact the idea of .1 LY speed for a 15
second jump. Of course, travel time can be siminished by higher
acceleration at the expense of possible hull/medical problems.
You be the judge.
Ok, here's the breakdown: #1 keeps all of the rules intact but challenges
assumption #2 in the arena of speed. Idea #2 keeps the rules intact
but challenges the idea of a 15 second jump from assuption #2. Idea
#3 challenges #2 almost completely and changes the rules.
So that's that: Figure out what poison you are going to take and
drink like Socrates, for there is NO WAY that this discussion can ever
be resolved.
And one more thing. If we are going to get really technical about space
travel, tehn we have to throw the whole spaceship combat system out
the window for one reason: 10 minutes at 1 g does not get you going at
even 1 hex per turn. A fighter, to go accelerate 5 hexes per turn,
would have to go 8 g's for 10 minutes. Right. However, the combat
system works bery well, so instead of keeping the hex as 10,000 km
as a yardstick, say that a hex=1 hex for purposes of movement.
Sure, that gives you nothing to base the size of the hex upon except
the relation of how big or how fast already established things are/go,
but it is just much easier to play with IN A GAME.
(BTW: for those who need a measuring stick: if 1 hex=6000 km, that
means an ion drive ship with ADF of 1 can still make jumps, etc. just
as fast as atomic ships, but fighters still pull around 5 g's for
ten minutes in combat. Again, pick your poison.)
Also BTW: If knowledgable SFer out there has calucualted the various
acceleration times to .1g, acceleration per minute for combat, etc.
PLEASE post these fighures so we can all check our math and have a
reference for future discussion. I have worked it out about three
times and come up with the conclusion that SF's math is screwed up,
but I fear I do not have the correct equations, etc.
SF and Top SECRET combat merge: For those of you who know Top Secret/S.I.
, how can one integrate it into a SF game rules. Here are some
prototypes of what I have envisioned:
a) Damage, like martial arts, is based on the first die, but they
have a modifier (close to the 'd' of damage they do) as a bonus.
b) How does one distribute damage that occurs over an extended area?
Falling, poison, and depressurization would all be examples.
Should falling be whatever area landed first? poison take off
points from the injection site out, 1 at a time (or from the stomach
then head, then limbs if injested?), is depressurization a 'lung'
thing? How have others solved this?
c) anybody actually PLAYTESTED this out? If so, how did it work
in terms of game balance?
Well, that should be all:
me,
delmar watkins
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:47:31 -0500
RE: Re: entering the void
From: TimC27@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to say that travel through the void
would appear instantaneous to the passengers, but in real time, X number of
days would have passed for X number of light years?
Since space isn't consistent, why should time be?
TimC27
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:55 -0500
RE: Re: MECH: travel, d20, and TS SI
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-08 02:40:25 EST, you write: (Delmar Watkins)
>SF and Top SECRET combat merge: For those of you who know Top Secret/S.I.
>, how can one integrate it into a SF game rules. Here are some
>prototypes of what I have envisioned:
>a) Damage, like martial arts, is based on the first die, but they
> have a modifier (close to the 'd' of damage they do) as a bonus.
>b) How does one distribute damage that occurs over an extended area?
> Falling, poison, and depressurization would all be examples.
> Should falling be whatever area landed first? poison take off
> points from the injection site out, 1 at a time (or from the stomach
> then head, then limbs if injested?), is depressurization a 'lung'
> thing? How have others solved this?
>c) anybody actually PLAYTESTED this out? If so, how did it work
> in terms of game balance?
>
>
Being the person who brought up TS/SI in the first place, maybe I should have
mentioned the rules for it. Let me expand/clarify some things mentioned
here.
a) Yes, damage is based on the first die but for unarmed attacks only. Any
damage done with a weapon, either hand to hand or a firearm, has it's own die
roll. Hit location is also based on the die roll (the ones die, instead of
the tens die as damage is). Also, you have temporary (bruise) and permanent
(wound) damage; but if you take temp damage and then permanent damage to the
same area, the perm damage goes over the temp damage first (ie, you take 4
points temp; then 2 points perm; you now have 2 points perm dam and 2 points
temp dam to that area).
b) Poison, and other whole body effects are damage done to CON(stitution);
basically like Stamina; except that it's *also* divided by 10 among the 10
hit locations. Yes, essentially you have two different pools of hit points;
one for the locations and another for the whole body. But when you reach 1/2
CON, you have to make a check (at 1/2 CON or go unconscious; same for 1/4
CON) so it's not so unreasonable.
c) I've played a little bit of TS/SI; not as much as I'd like (find me a GM,
I'll play...); never tried it for SF. There is a supplement (F.R.E.E.
Lancers) for running super-agents in the near future; they've got some laser
stats, but still we're not anywhere near the SF level of equipment available,
I'd say. On the plus side, there's actually a page and a half on bionics...
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:48 -0500
RE: Re: entering the void
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-07 23:25:08 EST, you write: (Roymeo)
>Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each light-year
>that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25.
>
>So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to
>program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days
>travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days
>decelleration.
Okay, you're right...but so am I, I believe. As follows: 10 hours for each
light-year for plotting, 8 hours sleep, ~2 hours for eating, any
conversations with other players, trying to find the (non-existant) bathroom
(oops! This isn't Star Trek)...and that's one day. Remember, we use 20 hour
days in Star Frontiers.
So, given the significant figures (namely, only one), my posting of 1 day per
ly is the same as your 18-20 hours per ly. Because the boardgame KH 1day/2ly
accellaration/decc. is more to get the trips to equal 1day/ly as far as I can
tell. Accelleration to .1C will take (12,000,000km/hour / 10,000
km/hex)=1200 hex/hour;
1 ADF=1 hex/10min; 1200 hex/hour / 6 hex/hour=200 ADF points. A 1 ADF ship
can thus reach jump speed in 200*10 min=2000 min or 33 hours; faster ships
will hit it proportionately faster, of course.
1day/2ly makes absolutely no sense other than from a wargaming/board game
perspective; after all, the speed required to jump into the void doesn't
*increase* for longer jumps, does it? (And you thought the Void rules as
they *are* are screwy...) Not to mention that they don't do navigation
there...that figure subsumes them, assuming we're reading the same passages
in the KH booklet.
So, if you don't want to use the 1 day/ly (Alpha Dawn p 49) in the rules, you
can add in the deceleration time (and acceleration time, if you go with the
'can't accelerate til the navigation's done' which I think is bogus) to the
navigation time of 10 hours/ly + sleep + misc (the guy *does* take showers
and eat, right?)--call it 20 hours/ly or 1 day.
Alternatively, we could basically junk the existing rules and rewrite them to
make better sense (keeping the time/skill requirements approximately the
same, preferably, on the average). (As Delmar Watkins is proprosing in
another post. Might be a good idea.)
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:46:37 +1100
RE: Re: entering the void
From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
More on void jumps.
Romeyo says :
> I agree with wes, generally the known starlanes should have astrogation
> programs which give a second to second calculation of the route
> downloadable for a small (or exhorbitant) fee.
And if the fees truly were exhorbitant, a freight company wishing to
buy the rights for a new route would have to balance the immediate cost
against the proposed long-term profit (for those PCs who run a freighter).
Further, exploring new lanes becomes much more profitable.
Romeyo continues :
> but, 'by the rules' the astrogator would have to spend 10 hours per
> light year (+ time for sleep, etc.).
Personally, "Damn the rules!"
> These calculations would probably be able to be modified by an
> astrogator for less than the 10hr/LY...
> Of course if the Malthar doesn't like you, he could have your ship fed
> really bad coordinates.
Alternatively, yes, it takes a mere human 10 hours per light year
to plot a course... if he were doing it by hand. If, of course, he just
pays K'zit-Kar SpacePort Control the administration charge of a mere
zillion credits to download the course directly into the Navicomp, it may
take but 10 minutes... or 10 days (we are talking about a bureaucracy here).
Large amounts of time could be wasted "waiting for clearance" - having two
starships pass through the same point in voidspace at the same time might
be a bit messy.
Dwatk00 says :
> OK, so what does that mean? That means that, according to this, ALL of
> the SF and KH stats are wrong. Great.
Oh, no! Is there a TSR product which doesn't have minor continuity problems?
Is there a role-playing game at all (bar Toon)? By the by, I'm mighty close
to finishing the Traveller-2300 Solar System Generator program (it's in
Pascal at the moment, but will be turned into C very soon, and be made
generally available :-). While trying to figure out the tables supplied,
I discovered that someone at GDW had a reasonably good eye for detail. I
could verify almost all of the tables by scientific cross-references or
calculation. However, one of the tables used the wrong equation. Pop quiz:
do you use the table presented, or do you use the real equation?
Dwatk00 continues :
> Here are ways to fix the problem:
> 1) Blah.
> 2) Blah, Blah.
> 3) Accerlation takes 3.5 days, decceleration an equal amount, and
> this is the same for all jumps. NOT consistant with the figures in
> the books, but DOES keep intact the idea of .1 LY speed for a 15
> second jump. Of course, travel time can be diminished by higher
> acceleration at the expense of possible hull/medical problems.
I believe this to be the best option, not only because it makes sense, but
because it introduces many more role-playing possibilities. The average
trip (directly from anywhere to anywhere) may take around 8 days regardless
of distance, but some firms >will< offer faster trips ("business class",
freight haulage) or slower ones ("love boat" style cruise ships). Beings
from different worlds may preferentially take a slower trip (travelling at
0.8g, for example) because their home world has a gravity of 0.8g, and thus
they feel more comfortable. Pirates, smugglers and military will probably go
faster (but then, they always do!), yet most trips will still only travel at
0.9g to 1.1g, if for no other reason than the average Joe who works on the
ship is going to get really pissed off when he gets osteoperosis, or liver
damage, or whatever, thus the unions force the commercial shipping companies
to maintain acceleration to strictly controlled bands.
My "moral of the story" is that whatever scheme you choose to use in your
game should not only (a) make sense, and (b) attempt to be consistent with
the rules as presented, but also (c) be interesting enough so that it suggests
campaign plot ideas & side issues (that is, things which may become part of
the storyline of the game, and thus be of direct interest to the players).
- Wes
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:43:42 -0600
RE: just a tad off-topic
From: roymeo@iastate.edu
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
I finally got the StarWars stuff I bought via auction.
one question: is the Rules Companion for first edition?
I have it and the Second edition rules, but not the first edition main
rules and am not sure.
roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 20:59:19 CST
RE: Re: entering the void <9601080503.AA02949@durin>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Wes said:
>Romeyo goes on to say :
>> Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each
>>light-year that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25.
>Why so long, especially if the route is well travelled (and thus assumed
>to be well documented)? Surely a well-known route can just be downloaded
>from publically accessible databases?
>- Wes
well, as someone noted, 1g accelleration gets you from earth to about
the orbit of Jupiter. Sure, everything is documented, but old documents
will do you little good. Planets revolving about suns, suns moving
relative to each other, other gravity wells to avoid/which influence,
etc.
Would do no good to skip on calculations and end up out by 'jupiter'
when the 'earth' you're trying to get to is on the opposite side of the
sun.
Actually I was somewhat surprised that the 1g accelleration would take
one such a 'little' distance. I wonder...this distance (jupiter's
orbit) is starting to sound a lot like the 100-diameter limit from
Traveller...
roymeo
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:11:53 -0600
RE: that void debate
From: roymeo@iastate.edu
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
first, I think for clarity, when we're discussing this, we ought to
make sure we're indicating whether we're talking about canon or
what we really use. Someone who is using long durations of 'void'
travel time is certainly interesting and relevant to us for consideration
to use personally, but it doesn't do much good in way of nailing down
exactly what the rules (could) mean.
So, this next bit is about the canon.
I'm beginning to wonder, without re-reading the rulebooks, is the 1%c
figure used often, or is it just mentioned at the beginning? If it
was mentioned only (or only concretely) at the little intro blurb,
then it is far more explainable as something someone tacked in to
make the manual read well.
personally:
I'm sticking to the 1day/LY for travel figure. I like having the distance
determine the time taken, I don't want Lynchpin to be a simple 4days away.
I also don't like the various methods of upping the accelleration to huge
figures, because 1) that turns a good simple system into a table of numbers
(if I wanted that I'd be playing with traveller rules).
2) there would be little to control the PC's from jaunting everywhere
at breakneck speed. Just like the characters with 'cursed swords' who
cut off their arms because it's an easy way to fix the problem and they
don't feel the pain.
now, I might be convinced to use smaller accelerations in the case of extra
sensitive beings, and grudginly would allow some race of heavyworlders to
go faster (guess how many of those I'll introduce!)
So, I'm of the 'voiding module' various accelerations based on 1/2LY
distance school.
roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 21:20:40 CST
RE: Re: entering the void <960108124730_109972147@emout05.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
TimC:
>Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to say that travel through the
>void would appear instantaneous to the passengers, but in real time, X
>number of days would have passed for X number of light years?
while this does lead to some neat things like the rich roaming the
starlanes to 'stay young' I think this still causes some problems with
canon. How long do the travellers need to acc/dec? if it is more than
2 days to reach 1%c, then we've already got more than the 4 days needed
to make the small jumps. And if it is only something like .5day to
reach an arbitrary jump speed, with the x number of days as
unexperienced by the travellers, we've dramatically cut down on the
amount of time that characters can interact with their surroundings.
I guess that's one reason I like the LY times. they give plenty of time
for shipboard interaction and intrigues. Would be little fun to take a
pleasure cruise about the frontier if everything went too fast.
roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 22:04:54 CST
RE: Re: entering the void <960108130447_85955793@emout06.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Indy wrote:
>In a message dated 96-01-07 23:25:08 EST, you write: (Roymeo)
>>Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each
>>light-year that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25.
>>
>>So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to
>>program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days
>>travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days
>>decelleration.
>Okay, you're right...but so am I, I believe. As follows: 10 hours for
>each light-year for plotting, 8 hours sleep, ~2 hours for eating, any
>conversations with other players, trying to find the (non-existant)
>bathroom (oops! This isn't Star Trek)...and that's one day. Remember,
>we use 20 hour days in Star Frontiers.
Ok, you caught me with that last bit. I use a nonstandard 25 hour day.
Mostly because I myself seem to have an internal clock running on
something like a 30 hour day, it seems very very strange for me to
consider a 20 hour day cycle. Of course I never really considered the
impact of a 25 hour day upon such things as travel (cause I personally
hold the 1%c thing as a goof).
Still, as you say, counting each 10 hours as a entire day with sleep,
etc., we have astrogation required for a 9LY trip to be 9 days. I do
not think it will do much good to have the astrogator working after
you've jumped the void. So even if you were accellerating while
calculating, you still have the 1.65 day (33hours) decelleration that you
calculated below.
This being true, we then have no easy numbers for the amount of travel
needed. Aside from the 1%c figure given (pg 3), the only easily found 'stat'
in the book is on page 33: "After several days of accelleration, the
ship should be ready to make its jump through the Void." Though vague,
this doesn't bode well for what you calculate below.
Yes, I suppose that though I'm arguing canon, I'm doing it in a way to
support what I already believe. You'd think I'd had a lot of experience
with theological debates or something.
On that note: pg 56 Transit Boxes
"The paths of light blue boxes between systems mark the known travel
routes in the Frontier. The boxes are "transit boxes." Each transit
box marks one day of acceleration or deceleration along that route.
Thus, transit boxes measure speed, not distance."
So, this would to me, be a pretty good indication that someone was
admitting that it does take more speed to go further.
This quote also reminded me that acceleration and deceleration have one
'l' each.
Also, page 58 which for a bit had me boggled: Accelerated Movement
(Risk Jumping) "Ships with an ADF of 2 or more can move two transit
boxes per day. Ships with an ADF of 3 or more can move three transit
boxes per day. No ship can move more than three transit boxes per day,
because such extreem, prolonged acceleration would disable the crew."
[various misjump probabilities are possible, though]
Now, we know the boxes are acceleration, so it must be the acceleration
which is required here, not the days beforehand for astrogation. Though
looking at this, I can see no evidence anywhere of the astrogators
taking up any time. Either they ignored it for playability, or you are
supposed to know to use that. I suppose it would also be possible if
you're going to allow running calculations for the astrogator to be
working on the jump out of the system that you are currently
approaching. Seems like the astrogator would be a dull boy, though, all
work and no play.
>So, given the significant figures (namely, only one), my posting of 1
>day per ly is the same as your 18-20 hours per ly. Because the
>boardgame KH 1day/2ly accellaration/decc. is more to get the trips to
>equal 1day/ly as far as I can tell. Accelleration to .1C will take
>(12,000,000km/hour / 10,000 km/hex)=1200 hex/hour; 1 ADF=1 hex/10min;
>1200 hex/hour / 6 hex/hour=200 ADF points. A 1 ADF ship can thus reach
>jump speed in 200*10 min=2000 min or 33 hours; faster ships will hit it
>proportionately faster, of course. 1day/2ly makes absolutely no sense
>other than from a wargaming/board game perspective; after all, the speed
>required to jump into the void doesn't *increase* for longer jumps, does
>it?
see above. :)
apparently so.
> (And you thought the Void rules as they *are* are screwy...) Not
>to mention that they don't do navigation there...that figure subsumes
>them, assuming we're reading the same passages in the KH booklet.
nah. I just thought the 1%c figure wasn't an absolute. still do
>So, if you don't want to use the 1 day/ly (Alpha Dawn p 49) in the
>rules, you can add in the deceleration time (and acceleration time, if
>you go with the 'can't accelerate til the navigation's done' which I
>think is bogus) to the navigation time of 10 hours/ly + sleep + misc
>(the guy *does* take showers and eat, right?)--call it 20 hours/ly or 1
>day.
Well, with the universe expanding (cept for Brooklyn) and the ships
engines having a touch of a flux of output and that huge asteroid you
just passed pulling the ship a touch off plotted course, I see the
astrogator as a busy little being making minute corrections as you are
accelerating. If plotting takes 10hours/LY, it would seem that these
sorts of things need to be accounted for.
>Alternatively, we could basically junk the existing rules and rewrite
>them to make better sense (keeping the time/skill requirements
>approximately the same, preferably, on the average). (As Delmar Watkins
>is proprosing in another post. Might be a good idea.)
Well, I think that this presentation of KH canon might help shed a touch
more light. I'll say it again, personally it just seems one should
ignore the 1%c figure. (playing with astrogation time is a seperate
issue, and I would certainly support lowing the number from 10hours/LY,
but not allow calculation enroute).
roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 22:25:51 CST
RE: Re: entering the void <9601082146.AA03028@durin>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Wes said:
>Romeyo says :
roymeo. cause I'm roy. geeze, you'll never find my webpages with that
spelling. :)
>> I agree with wes, generally the known starlanes should have astrogation
>> programs which give a second to second calculation of the route
>> downloadable for a small (or exhorbitant) fee.
>And if the fees truly were exhorbitant, a freight company wishing to
>buy the rights for a new route would have to balance the immediate cost
>against the proposed long-term profit (for those PCs who run a
>freighter).
>Further, exploring new lanes becomes much more profitable.
Well, I was thinking more on the lines of each time one wished to go
from A to B, one would have to buy new calculations. This wouldn't be
much, just enough to make the players have to decide whether the time
saved for astrogation was worth the credits. And now that i consider
it, wouldn't Trans-Travel have a station somewhere staffed fulltime by
astrogators who made the calculations for each ship and then fed them to
the actual ships which are travelling?
>Romeyo continues : [roy-me-o]
>> but, 'by the rules' the astrogator would have to spend 10 hours per
>> light year (+ time for sleep, etc.).
>Personally, "Damn the rules!"
*nods* It was just my unconscious thought to seperate the canon
discussion from the 'I do this' thing. If you're using something like
the Dune method of void jumping, it won't help me figure out what to do
with the 1%c number.
>Pop quiz:
>do you use the table presented, or do you use the real equation?
depends upon how many anal physics majors you have in your campaign.
I'd use the chart unless it is wildly inaccurate/unplayable/causes
further problems down the line/causes too much suspension of disbelief.
>Dwatk00 continues :
>> 3) Accerlation takes 3.5 days, decceleration an equal amount, and
>> this is the same for all jumps. NOT consistant with the figures in
>> the books, but DOES keep intact the idea of .1 LY speed for a 15
>> second jump. Of course, travel time can be diminished by higher
>> acceleration at the expense of possible hull/medical problems.
>I believe this to be the best option, not only because it makes sense,
>but because it introduces many more role-playing possibilities.
I dunno. I think the various times required open up more possibilities.
On the run, Star Law after you but having no clue where you jumped to
from Prenglar, do you go the small jump, or the long jump?
And when you get to start trying to pull 18LY stunts, why should that be
the same as the 1LY jump from MY vrusk homeworld/plague planet to the
Ebony Eyes binary blackhole. Though this 1LY thing may make me require
some sort of minimum acceleration time for a minimum speed.
>My "moral of the story" is that whatever scheme you choose to use in
>your game should not only (a) make sense, and (b) attempt to be
>consistent with the rules as presented, but also (c) be interesting
>enough so that it suggests campaign plot ideas & side issues (that is,
>things which may become part of the storyline of the game, and thus be
>of direct interest to the players).
agreed. [a] is a personal issue, yet knowing what others are doing
allows more options
[b] is the canon debate we're having
[c] screw the canon when necessary. Use Dune navigators if that's what
you want.
roymeo
Tue, 9 Jan 96 23:08:09+120
RE: Re: just a tad off-topic
From: whisen@krems.kmr.ll.mit.edu (Tim Whisenhunt)
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
>
>I finally got the StarWars stuff I bought via auction.
>
>one question: is the Rules Companion for first edition?
>I have it and the Second edition rules, but not the first edition main
>rules and am not sure.
>
>roymeo
>
Yes the rules companion is for 1st ed but a lot of the 1st edition stuff is
still useful in second ed. Some of the info was already incorporated into
the second edition rules so parts of it are pretty superfluous. Unlike a lot
of second edition games that claim compatibility Star Wars does a nice job
of fixing the few basic flaws inherent in the 1st edition, adding more
complexity while keeping the ease of play that made it a great game to begin
with, and making those of us who started from the beginning feel as if we
had not wasted a lot of money buying the first edition(ie: it is not all
outdated)
Tim
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 08:35:02 -0700
RE: Revised SF ship combat
From: Steve Bartell <STEVEBAR@wordperfect.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
After running the Sathar War from the Knighthawks boxed set, I noticed
something that dramatically takes away from the realism of space
combat in Star Frontiers. Now normally, I am the first one to say "leave
the rules be and live with it", but maybe not this time.
In KH, you move a number of hexes on your turn according to your ADF
speed you are going. This forced a ship to be in front of a ship one turn,
then all the sudden move instantly far away during their turn. The effect
is having the ships bounce around the map. Sure, a ship can fire at any
ship that moves through it's firing path, but it is hard to plan tactics ahead
of time when you have no idea where the ship is going until it makes it's
complete turn move.
Solution: anyone who has played StarFleet Battles knows that they have
their turns divided into "impulses", where each ship moves one hex at a
time, according to it's speed. For instance, a ship that is moving very
fast might move one hex almost every impulse, but slow ones might
move one hex every 8 impulses.
Has anyone ever incorporated this type of movement into your game? If
so, how did it work? If not, I am considering writing something up on it
and posting it to the list.
Thanks,
-Steve Bartell
http://members.aol.com/stbartell/private/index.htm
Tue, 09 Jan 96 13:57:02 EST
RE: Re: just a tad off-topic
From: Brian M Lauer <UK02050@ukcc.uky.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
The Rules Compendium is for 1st Ed. SWRPG. I'm amazed that
you were able to find a copy.
Brian
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:18:06 -0500
RE: Re: entering the void
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-08 23:07:28 EST, you write:
>Well, I think that this presentation of KH canon might help shed a touch
>more light. I'll say it again, personally it just seems one should
>ignore the 1%c figure. (playing with astrogation time is a seperate
>issue, and I would certainly support lowing the number from 10hours/LY,
>but not allow calculation enroute).
This is starting to get interesting...(G)
I'll probably post a more lengthy post on this topic in reply to some of your
other points later, but I wanted to mention this right now.
I wouldn't allow calculation that WASN'T done enroute. With all the
variations that might come up; slight course errors, a minor asteroid here or
there, etc, I would say that calculations are an ongoing process. While the
rough draft (as it were) can be done ahead of time, all the fine details
depend on *what's actually happening*. Indeed in KH p 25 (Plot Interseller
Jumps) we find that "The time needed to make course corrections increases for
long jumps, because even small errors become very serious as the distance
increases."
As regards to day length...in Alpha Dawn, it mentions that the 20 hour day
(Galactic Standard Time) is used primarily for record keeping. Pay, and
travel time, are figured from the standard day; local systems will be used
for other purposes. And of course, banking uses standard 20 hour days for
determining interest, when loans are due, etc.
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:21:05 -0600
RE: Re: just a tad off-topic
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
At 08:43 PM 1/8/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I finally got the StarWars stuff I bought via auction.
>
>one question: is the Rules Companion for first edition?
>I have it and the Second edition rules, but not the first edition main
>rules and am not sure.
>
>roymeo
>
>
That is a good question. The 1st and 2nd Edition SW rules shouldn't be all
that different. But then I don't know. I've always played 2nd edition rules.
ThankU
Darryl Fuller.
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:42:24 -0600
RE: The Void
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Okay so we accelerate at 83km/sec to enter the void. What happens when we
encounter a gravitational anomaly in the Void that throws are navigation
computers off. And if so, is there gravitational anomalies in the Void. By
gravitational anomaly I mean like SW, a planet or other such large item
casts a shadow in hyperspace. Does this happen in SF. I think it does
otherwise we would be able to zip right through the Greater Morass and other
large interstellar dust clouds.
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:51:10 -0600
RE: KH Space Combat
From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
What travels in a straight line tends to travel in a straigh line unless
acted upon by an outside force. Using Newtonian physics, I should be able to
accellerate my Assault Scout to a speed of 20 and without changing vector
rotate my Assault Scout around to face what was previously the rear (thus
flying backwards) and fire at the enemy pursuing me.
Thankyou
Darryl Fuller.
Tue, 09 Jan 96 17:14:06 EST
RE: TS/SI
From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu>
To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu>
I knew the system for TS/SI, but had forgotten the 'two pool' system
of damage. My first point, about assigning a damage modifier to
the established 'to hit' roll was an attempt to simplify the system.
If we use the system described, but then add a damage modifier based on
the weapon to the rolled number, then with one roll we know IF the
character hit, HOW HARD the character hit, and WHERE the character hit.
I think I would have rather seen Zeb's guide go in this direction if they
wnated to update the SF system because it is not only better but also
almost 100% compatible with all of the current SF material.
I don't have the TS/SI book & haven't seen it in about 3 years, but
here is a guess at my 'damage bonus' numbers. Indy, convert some of the
TS/SI guns to SF so we can add these rules if we want them...
Laser Pistol +1 per 2 SEU
Gyrojet Pistol +3
Sonic Disruptor +5/4/3/2 for PB/S/M/L ranges
Auto Pistol +2, +3 if three rnd burst
Needler Pistol +1 + drugs or +2 barbed
Laser Rifle +1 per 2 SEU
Gyrojet Rifle +3
Sonic Devestator +8/7/6/5 for PB/S/M/L ranges
Auto Rifle +2, +3 if 3 rnd burst, +3 on 3 locations for
burst fire
Needler Rifle +1 + drugs, or +3 barbed
Heavy Laser +1 per SEU
Are these even close or realistic? Please comment...
me,
delmar watkins
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 19:18:11 -0500
RE: Re: TS/SI
From: IndyCCTX@aol.com
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
In a message dated 96-01-09 17:27:55 EST, you write: (Delmar Watkins)
>If we use the system described, but then add a damage modifier based on
>the weapon to the rolled number, then with one roll we know IF the
>character hit, HOW HARD the character hit, and WHERE the character hit.
>
>I think I would have rather seen Zeb's guide go in this direction if they
>wnated to update the SF system because it is not only better but also
>almost 100% compatible with all of the current SF material.
>
>I don't have the TS/SI book & haven't seen it in about 3 years, but
>here is a guess at my 'damage bonus' numbers. Indy, convert some of the
>TS/SI guns to SF so we can add these rules if we want them...
>
>
Okay, once more, weapons have a separate damage roll. The combined roll to
hit/damage is only for unarmed combat. The numbers listed aren't useable
because this wasn't taken into account.
Sample damages: (From TS/SI)
.22 Baretta 1d6
.32 Baretta 1d6
9mm Browning HP 1d6+1
.45 Colt M-1911-A1 1d8
.30 M-1 Carbine 1d8
.30-06 M-1 Garand 1d6+1
7.62mm M60 machine gun 1d8
.50 Browning M2 machine gun 1d10
Note that in TS/SI, scores range from 20-79. CON is divided by 10 to give
the amount of damage each hit location can take...so most areas will have 4-5
points of damage it can take. Maxing out wound damage to the head, chest, or
abdomen kills the character.
Using this system, most of the time you're back to the old roll to hit, then
roll for damage routine instead of the ZG one roll method. On the other
hand, it also provides for hit locations *without* an additional roll
required.
Never go on an adventure without a hat!
Indy
IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 18:25:53 CST
RE: Re: The Void <199601092142.PAA17614@n-link.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
darryl had a good point with the note about the clouds being navigation
hazards. I never really processed that. Of course other systems do
seem to 'attract' ships, because when you misjump, you do end up in
another system. Though this may have just been a playability issue
(though how getting trapped in a system with no civilization will help
when you have no fuel is beyond me). There is a difference between the
Star Wars hyperdrive. Generally in Star Wars, they are going great
distances and are not limited to 15LY for safety.
roy
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:59:58 +1100
RE: Re: entering the void
From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
"Please Sir, I want some more..."
Roymeo (Yes, that's >Roymeo<, not that other imposter - sorry!) says :
> well, as someone noted, 1g accelleration gets you from earth to about
> the orbit of Jupiter. Sure, everything is documented, but old documents
> will do you little good. Planets revolving about suns, suns moving
> relative to each other, other gravity wells to avoid/which influence,
> etc.
>
> Would do no good to skip on calculations and end up out by 'jupiter'
> when the 'earth' you're trying to get to is on the opposite side of the
> sun.
True. But most of those calculations ought to be automatic as well. We
can do almost all of those things here and now. That's how we know when...
* When lunar apogee & perigee occur;
* When Earth's (and most other planets') aphelion and perihelion are;
* When Major conjunctions, minor conjunctions, "times of closest passage", etc.
are;
* When the tides (incorporating both the solar and lunar aspects) are;
* When (and where) solar & lunar eclipses are;
* When Halley's comet will come back;
etc. etc.
Mathematical models of the positions of planets, asteroids, comets, and moons
have already been worked out for our solar system. That's why the two Voyagers
did so well.
Combine this with "proper motion" calculations of the stars relative to some
fixed point (again, we do this now), and voila! An instant 4-dimensional map
(x,y,z,t) map of the galaxy.
I could write a simple navicomp program for the Frontier in a few hours. Of
course, my navicomp would be a Mac (and only a Classic II at that), but hey!
My Subaru 4-cylinder starfreighter's been in dry dock for 18 months.
Roymeo also wrote :
> >do you use the table presented, or do you use the real equation?
>
> depends upon how many anal physics majors you have in your campaign.
> I'd use the chart unless it is wildly inaccurate/unplayable/causes
> further problems down the line/causes too much suspension of disbelief.
Hmmm... Point taken, but I was more concerned with the writing of the star
system generator program than doing calculations by hand during a game. I
wouldn't do a full solar system by hand using the Traveller 2300 rules
anyway - it'd take hours.
- Wes
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 20:36:56 CST
RE: damage systems <960109191745_111418557@emout06.mail.aol.com>
From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
anyone ever use the "It's a hit, but where?" article from a dragon?
Sure, it requires a seperate roll (only for very good hits, the rest are
still treated as whole body damage).
just wondering how well it's worked for others, and any modifications
anyone has used on it. as it is, it is KIND OF nice to have some good
hits creating specific wounds to specific areas, but of course you can
still have most hits doing just generic damage.
I suppose for the playability, it is less realistic but a little simpler
to have most/all damage being generic. having only some hits doing
specific damage keeps the game moving along in a more space operaeque
way yet adds the potential for specific crippling hits. I know from
past experience with Rolemaster, that if you start getting too frequent
spcific damage, you soon have a party which needs to stop because a
quarter of the party's limbs are missing or inoperative.
roymeo aka rev. roy crisman (for those with some confusion)
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:05:12 +1100
RE: Re: damage systems
From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au>
To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
"Bonjour" from the land of the nonexistant summer!
Roymeo writes :
> anyone ever use the "It's a hit, but where?" article from a dragon?
Sorry! Haven't seen a Dragon in 3 years.
> just wondering how well it's worked for others, and any modifications
> anyone has used on it.
A friend of mine used a fighter hit sheet from FASA's Renegade Legion -
Interceptor in a game of AD&D. Each of the ship circuits was considered
to represent a specific piece of the body or bodily function. The ship's
armour became the character's, with pieces of armour falling off at
appropriate times. Different weapons were given different "hit shapes",
just as different weapons in Interceptor do. Apparently they enjoyed it
so much they forgot the plot of the story, and ran off to get slaughtered
by a pack of kobolds.
> As it is, it is KIND OF nice to have some good hits creating specific
> wounds to specific areas, but of course you can still have most hits
> doing just generic damage.
>
> I suppose for the playability, it is less realistic but a little simpler
> to have most/all damage being generic. having only some hits doing
> specific damage keeps the game moving along in a more space operaeque
> way yet adds the potential for specific crippling hits. I know from
> past experience with Rolemaster, that if you start getting too frequent
> specific damage, you soon have a party which needs to stop because a
> quarter of the party's limbs are missing or inoperative.
I always wanted to use such a system in AD&D, but more for the role-playing
possibilities. For example, a wizard who happily and regularly casts Fireball
has three fingers of his left hand chopped off (or casts Dexter's Digits of
Death by accident). Uh-oh! Can't cast that Fireball anymore, because those
three fingers were crucial to the somantic component. Thus, the character
goes off and researches a new version of the spell, in which he need only
use his right hand, or no hands at all. Later, he discovers how useful it
was to do so - when he's tied to a stake in the middle of a goblin lair
about to be made into a sashlik, and he can't move his hands.